Joined: April 2006
*** THE MAIN TRAIL OF DISCUSSION--AGE OF THE EARTH: He and ZIRCONS ***
I think he felt it was not important to investigate the lower temperatures. You are correct that diffusion depends exponetially on temperature, but is this not true only for higher temps? At the lower temps, it appears that there is not much effect. How much would the lower temps affect the results? And why could you not assume an average temp? Remember, for the long ager scenario to work, you guys need 5 orders of magnitude slower diffusion than what was measured by Farley. How does Harrison and Sasada know that temps were lower in the past? This is opposite what we would expect from igneous rocks.
|But I think there are some temperature issues, even if they're not enough to completely explain the results. Humphreys et al explicitly assumed that the temperatures were always today's temperatures, and "justified" that with a discussion claiming that the alternative was worse for "uniformitarians" and some discussion of temperature spikes. They never discussed poossible lower temperatures, even though Henke brought up some studies that indicate temperatures were lower in the past. Diffusion typically depends exponentially on temperature, and knowing the thermal history of the samples is key for accurate results. |
And the bottom line is that even significantly lower temps for the entire history with NO spikes, doesn't help your billion + year scenario. At best you can push Humphreys dates from 6000 back to 14,000, which he already allows for.
So what was your point again?
Oh, come now. We've been through this. Have you asked any specialist in the field of zircon testing about this? If you did, they would tell you that vacuum testing is done all the time with zircons because it doesn't matter. Remember Humphreys easy rebuttal of Henke on this? Henke was comparing soft mica, with water, and Argon which is entirely different than hard zircon, dry, and Helium. Come on, JonF, you can do better than this.
|Personally, I think the most likely explanation is invalid extrapolation of lab results under vacuum to calculate diffusion rates under known subsurface pressures. |
Come on again. Didn't you read that the measured He concentration in the surrounding biotite was something like 1/200th of the concentration in the zircons. Now how is that helium going to diffuse INTO the zircons?
|My second most likely scenario is a combination of relatively impervious surroundings combined with some retardation of diffusion, or even reversal of diffusion, by uncommonly high helium concentration in the surroundings. |
Sorry, you're wrong.
Oh brother. Here we go again, accusing Creationists of invoking God's magic tricks at every turn. You forget that you guys have to invoke magic tricks to explain ...
|I just don't understand that last sentence. If God magicked alpha, beta, and electron capture decay processes so as to make the Earth appear billons of years old and correlate essentially perfectly each other and with stratigraphy and other indications, why couldn't He just magic away the radiation and heat too, and magic the spectra of stars while He's at it? Maybe He's just absent-minded ... apparently He forgot to magic diffusion so as to keep it consistent with radiometric results. |
2) The Origin of the Solar System with proper earth-sun distance
3) The creation of new, more complex features in organisms
4) The evolution of language from animal grunts
etc. etc. etc.
The fact is NO scientist has an explanation for ALL phenomena. And so you make educated guesses. Evos guesses have nothing to do with God and Creos do. That's the only difference. (Oh, there's one other difference ... the Creo's guesses make more sense than the Evos because there are real world analogies that we can relate our guesses to ... oops ... forgot that one)
Creos ALWAYS entertain the possibility of a miracle because they are open-minded enough to realize that IF there is such a thing as a Super-Intelligent Designer out there somewhere, He just might know some things about natural law that we don't know about. He also just might be able to override the natural laws in his universe when he deems it necessary, just as a gardener 'overrides natural law' when he sprays his garden with insecticide, or tills the weeds under.
That's the problem with you guys. You are so myopic, that you have to appeal only to natural laws which you understand and can test with your limited scientific instruments. You won't admit evidence from any other discipline. And as long as you don't, you will continue to be blind.
and finally ...
|Dave, Dave, Dave. You are so slow. That does not explicitly say they are going to carry out more experiments, although it's possible to interpret it as such.|
No. You are slow. It took you a while. But you finally found what I was talking about. Good. Maybe you will catch on soon that the Helium-Zircon Project is a stunning blow to long agers. Maybe long agers will actually take the cue from the RATE Group and get cracking on accelerated decay research.
|But I find that they are planning RATE II. From What Comes after RATE?: RATE II is a continuation of research on selected subprojects from RATE which need additional documentation. For example, RATE studied only rocks from the earth, and yet some important estimates of the age of the universe come from meteorite analyses. RATE II will include meteorites and also expand the data set collected by RATE on helium diffusion, isochron discordance, carbon-14 in diamonds, radiohalos, fission tracks, and potassium-40 in pre-Flood insects. |
Yes. The rebuttal is sounding 'FLAKIER AND FLAKIER' so let's change the subject and talk about space flight. Maybe Aftershave could contribute to this one. He's a rocket scientist.
|Don't think of the zircons as the ice cubes, but as flakes of pepper or such inside the ice cubes. The zircons may always be at or very near to thermal equilibrium with their surroundings, but their surrondings could be cool rocks gradually melting in lava flows.|
By the way, doing a search on zircon and age of the earth turned up this interesting article:
And I am systematically dismantling all of them. What are you going to do when I blow all your 'millions of evidences' apart and show you why you should have believed Creationists and their 'millions of evidences' for a young earth.
|Dave, I've got evidence for an earth hundreds of thousands to billions of years old from: radiometric data (real radiometric data), fossil evidence, dendrochronology, arctic ice cores, plate tectonics, paleomagnetic studies, theories of planetary development, tidal data, stratigraphic data, particle physics, astronomy, cosmology, and others too numerous to mention.|
In the mean time you are at a loss to know what to do with Humphreys stunning RATE Results and Henke's lame rebuttal.
|I don't need to. Even if his results were not equivocal, they would be two anomalous results against millions of other results that all agree with each other. If you measured the mass of the electron 15 million times and came up with half a MeV every time, and then twice you got results that were 1.5 grams, would you take the two anomalous results?|
Yeah and if your meter is off by 5 orders of magnitude because you close your eyes to the possibility of a Creation event and a Flood event that might have caused accelerated decay, then you can take a BILLION measurements and you'll be wrong a BILLION times.
That's what you guys don't get. You make unwarranted assumptions and build your whole life upon them. This happened with stratigraphy. Lyell (a lawyer, not even a geologist) sold a bill of goods to the geologists with his "Principles of Geology" and they adopted the idea of uniformitarianism. Creationists had been saying all along that uniformitarianism was wrong because they believed Noah's Flood explained everything much better. Well, guess what happened. Uniformitarians finally discarded their theory under the weight of field evidence, but they couldn't admit that creationists were right after all. So they came up with terms like 'punctuated equilibrium' and 'episodicity' and the like.
Same thing is going to happen in radiometric dating.
The creationists are saying it's a young world and point to hundreds of evidences for this. Now they are getting more organized and well funded and it won't be long before the long agers are going to have egg on their face just like the stratigraphers did. What new, creative terms will they come up with to cover up the egg-on-face?
I've probably read the Talk Origins stuff more thoroughly than anyone here. Most of it is quite lame.
|And the problem is, Dave, you don't read the information at the TalkOrigins site anyway. |
************* VARIOUS RABBIT TRAILS AND OTHER SUNDRIES ********************
DEADMAN IS TRULY A "DEAD MAN" ON THE LOSS OF WRITING ISSUE
From Wikipedia ...
The earliest known civilizations (as defined in the traditional sense) arose in Mesopotamia between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers in modern-day Iraq, the Nile valley of Egypt, the Indus Valley region of modern-day Pakistan and North India, and the parallel development of Chinese civilizations in the Huang He (Yellow River) and Yangtze River valleys of China, while smaller civilizations arose in Elam in modern-day Iran, and on the island of Crete in the Aegean Sea, as well as the Olmec civilization in present-day Mexico. The inhabitants of these areas built cities, created writing systems, learned to make pottery and use metals, domesticated animals, and created complex social structures with class systems.
Deadman ... you don't understand the history of civilization because you are reading the wrong books. If you read the Bible and if you read good books like "The Genesis Flood" by Morris and Whitcomb and material from ICR, you would know that ALL civilizations originated in the areas listed above and the people spread out from there shortly after the Tower of Babel incident. There were many land bridges at that time as the polar ice caps were much more extensive and the seas shallower. It is also likely that there was one large super-continent prior to the Flood and that this separated. In any case, my claim is established easily because all civilizations began in the areas listed above and people spread out from there--this includes your ancestors and the ancestors of my dad's native tribe. Some kept the ability to write, some did not. And my claim is further supported by the more specific and easily demonstrated case of the Aztecs and Maya. We will be looking more closely at the Flood, the Dispersion of people groups after Babel, and the possibility of a breakup of a 'Pangea' type super-continent. Suffice to say for now that my best guess is that your ancestors, the N. Am 'Indians' are descended from people groups from Asia which migrated to N. Am by land bridges which were probably in existence for several hundred years following the Flood. This is not easily provable stuff, but there is evidence of it and we will get into it. If my theory is correct, then my statement is supported that your ancestors are descended from a civilization which once had a written language, but then lost it.
The decline of civilizations is interesting, but the really big news is that civilization appeared abruptly, recently and simultaneously in several locations. This is much more easily explained within the Biblical framework than in your 200,000 year gradualist framework. If you really want me to buy into ToE, the burden of proof is on you to try to explain plausibly how humans went along for 195,000 years, PRESTO, all of a sudden they all developed great civilizations with writing, science, astronomy, agriculture, etc.
Yes. And they are based upon flawed assumptions. We will get to that shortly, but first we are looking at the RATE Project and related issues.
|I say we know this and I have said WHY we know this, DaveTard: I gave you a list of non-radiometric methods used to date sites across the world, DaveTard, and you know that, but you avoid answering at all. |
Oh no. Not avoiding. Just not one of my selected rabbit trails. We will get to it though. Patience, Deadman!
|When I ask you about the dendrochronology used to date such sites in North America, DaveTard, you avoid that too. |
You're not sick. Your dead! :-)
|Yeah, you sicken me. |
Oh no. I didn't say he is trying to promote ID. But nevertheless he IS promoting ID. Ain't it great!
|go ask Alan MacNeill (the instructor), if he thinks his course is trying to promote ID.|
Not until I get through my points. I am enjoying the fact that no of the evolutionists have very good arguments. They have a lot of rhetoric and mud to sling, but not much science. I have noticed that you don't have much sciency stuff to say. What is your occupation?
|will he get bored, even?|
You're welcome! On your deathbed, you will really thank me because then you will be only minutes away from meeting your Creator!
|However, you do provide this long-time lurker with a lot of amusement, and some opportunity (through the efforts of others) to learn, and so again I thank you. |
No. It is to dismantle the ToE and Millions of Years and establish the Biblical framework of Creation and the Flood. I like most of mainstream science. Most of it is quite beneficial to the world.
|Your original intent here was, obviously, to dismantle mainstream science, from biology to cosmology to geology to you name it. |
No, but my skin is green and I just have one eye in the middle of my forehead!
|Does AFDave drive a Hummer? Does he own a dachschund? |
Oh, yeah. That would be nice. So they could die. They came to my dad all the time asking him what he was going to do when they all died. No kidding. They really said this.
|This is the scarcely-concealed tacit racism that led to missionaries like DaveTard's daddy to spend their time among "degenerate heathens" that didn't *need* anything from DaveTard's kind except to be left alone.|
My dad saved them from dying out, and I am an eyewitness of this.
Your a dead man, Deadman, at least about your anthropology.
A DILEMMA FOR THE COMMITTED NATURALIST
A Hi-tech alien spaceship lands on earth ... DESIGNED.
A Hi-tech alien rotary motor found in a cell ... NOT DESIGNED.