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  Topic: Official Uncommonly Dense Discussion Thread< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
djmullen



Posts: 327
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 03 2007,05:57   

Somebody pointed to this thread on www.kcfs.org where Sal gets into an argument about plumes of hot rock like the one that built the Hawaiian Islands, which are impossible, according to Sal, because he found a web site run by a cute girl (he posts her picture, of course, because a picture is worth a thousand words of argument, if Sal is doing the arguing) who disagrees with current theory.

The thread kind of meanders, as threads with Sal in them tend to do, and finally gets down to a question of whether rock can flow under intense heat and pressure.

Finally, in his ultimate posting, Sal states:
 
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SHEESH! DO YOU GUYS EVER READ ANYTHING I WRITE:
Post 157

You're using Argumentum Ad Nauseam from the swamp battle tactics manual.  

You're repeating something I already corrected Joe Meert on.

quote:
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Originally posted by Salvador T. Cordova, IDEA GMU:
   
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JM: Despite the many silly assertions in this quote, it is interesting to note that Walt sees no problem with solid salt moving as a plume so I wonder why he is so troubled by mantle materials?


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FYI to Joe: Wet sediments are not the same as solid rock. Just thought you should know the difference.

Brown was discussing supersaturated water and pasty layers of salt, not solid rock. The plumes here were not owing to density differences created by temperature but by differing densities of the substances involved.

Thus again you appeal to phenomena of plumes in a watery context to suggest they exist in solid rock.

But you misrepresent what Walt is actually saying:


quote:
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Joes inaccurate representation:

Walt sees no problem with solid salt moving as a plume so I wonder why he is so troubled by mantle materials?


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But Walt is not talking about solid salt in isolation is he? Here it is in Walt's words:

(Colorful drawing of a salt dome deleted)

Salt Dome Formation

Figure 56: Salt Dome. Just as a cork released at the bottom of a swimming pool will float up through water, wet salt can float up through denser sediments. It begins when a small part of a wet salt layer rises. That causes other salt in the layer to flow horizontally and then up into a rising plume, called a salt dome. If the salt and sediments are mushy and saturated with water, friction offers little resistance. The upturned (or bowl-shaped) layers next to the salt dome can become traps in which oil collects, so understanding salt domes has great economic value.


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I do appreciate however you read Brown's work, but you should make a better effort to represent his correctly. Brown was discussing supersaturated water and pasty layers, not solid rock. There is a difference you know.  

So Joe, Walt is talking about plumes formed by the assistance of liquid, which is consistent with my prvious assertion that plumes don't form in solid rock (except in the imaginations of geologists).

Again, I encourage the lurkers to take a stone and heat it up and tell me if plumes like the one pictured with the salt start appearing. Or take some layered rocks and tell me if heating the rocks forms a plume.


That was posted Aug 9, 2005.

In the next message, posted by Connor J an hour later, we learn that      
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Do you ever read what your hero, The Great and Terrible Brown, wrote?
"Pressures in the crust 5 miles or more below the earth's surface are so great that the rock, if not rigidly contained, will flow like highly compressed, extremely stiff putty."



On August 15, Bill A writes:      
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So what did Walt actually say? From Walt's book:    
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Assumption 1: Subterranean Water. About half the water now in the oceans was once in interconnected chambers about 10 miles below the earth’s surface. Excluding the solid structure of the interconnected chambers, the subterranean water, containing a large amount of dissolved salts and carbon dioxide, would have approximated a thin, spherical shell, averaging about 3/4 of a mile in thickness.31 Above the subterranean water was a granite crust; beneath the water was a layer of basaltic rock. (See Figure 53.)

Europe, Asia, Africa, and the Americas were generally in the positions shown in Figure 51 on page 109, but were joined across what is now the Atlantic Ocean. On the crust were seas, both deep and shallow, and mountains, generally smaller than those of today, but some perhaps 5,000 feet high.

We don’t need to assume the temperature of this subterranean water. Subsequent events, as you will see, rapidly increased its temperature and that of the rock above and below. Minerals and gases were dissolved in this water, especially salt (NaCl) and carbon dioxide (CO2).

Some have asked, “How could rock float on water?” The crust did not float on water; water was trapped and sealed under the crust. It was like a thin slab of rock resting on and covering an entire waterbed. As long as the water mattress does not rupture, a dense slab will rest on top of less-dense water. Unlike a waterbed’s seal, which is only a thin sheet of rubber, the chamber’s seal was compressed rock almost 10 miles thick. Pressures in the crust 5 miles or more below the earth’s surface are so great that the rock, if not rigidly contained, will flow like highly compressed, extremely stiff putty. The slightest crack or opening, even around a small chunk of rock, could not open from below.

Walt must have the worst spell checker in the world. He keeps typing 'rock' everytime he means to say 'supersaturated water and pasty layers of salt'.

I don't know Sal, it sure seems like Walt's saying that the tremendous pressures help keep his subterranean water contained by allowing rock to "flow like highly compressed, extremely stiff putty", sealing any potential leaks.


That was August 15, 2005.  Strangely enough, Sal hasn't posted on that thread since.  Wonder why.

  
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