Mike PSS
Posts: 428 Joined: Sep. 2006

Quote (avocationist @ Jan. 23 2007,01:53)  Quote  Fair enough... for philisophical musings. But I think your idea to identify the SLoT (or in this case entropy) as some "disorganizing force" confuses the discussion tremendously. When you invoke the SLoT argument you can't ignore the other laws around it.  I simply can't keep from musing philosophically. It ties everything together for me. Perhaps you should explain about those other laws around it, in what way am I ignoring them. I do think of entropy as a disorganizing force, basically things break down into their simpler and simpler components. Is that wrong? When does entropy give you your money back? When is it ever reversible? Sure it is a cost of doing business. I'm not knocking entropy. Ya gotta have the creator, the maintainer, and the destroyer (Hinduism). Quote  Would you agree that the SLoT usage is confusing? Or do you have some more detail to this?  Um, no, I don't see why. 
I'll treat this question seperately.
I approach Thermodynamics from a chemical engineering understanding. That means I don't see it as a "mechanical" system of rules but a "chemical" system of rules. If you talk with a mechanical engineer you'll get a different perspective. If you talk to a physicist, you'll get another perspective. This just indicates that there are aspects of Thermo that are used more or less frequently depending on the systems you work with. However, Thermo is a robust mathematical treatment of macroscopic heat transfer that works in all the above systems.
Skim through the Wiki pages for a quick reference. Thermodynamics Laws of Thermomdynamics Thermodynamic Potentials (variables)
If you skim through those pages you'll notice that the terminology, when talking about Entropy (S), is always in regards to an integrated equation. And most of the defined variables (Gibbs free energy (G), Helmholtz free energy (H), Internal energy (U), Enthalpy (H)) have mathematical relationships with each other along with associated physical properties (pressure, volume, mass, number of molecules, chemical potential, etc..).
Without making this into a primer for Thermo you can start to see that the SLoT is only a small part of the overall construct we call Thermodynamics. Entropy is no more a force than Enthalpy or Internal energy. ALL the variables contribute to the WHOLE macroscopic description of a system. You can't remove Enthalpy as a seperate and distinct quantity (or quality).
You can muse on disorganizing (and/or organizing) forces all you want, but when you invoke Entropy as one of these forces I'm calling foul. There are some interesting mathematical treatments of Thermodynamic balance equations (called, I think, transpositions) where we can transpose the Thermo equations (not the measured units) to describe other phenomena like electromagnetic fields and forces. {Think of this in terms of coordinate systems on a graph. You can transpose an (xyz) cartesian coordinate system to an (rpsitheta) spherical coordinate system by transposition balance equations that relate the two systems.}
If you want to use Entropy to describe your disorganizing force then I'll have to ask you for the transposition formulaes your using for ALL the balance equations.
I'm travelling and will get back on the other half of the post in a bit.
