Rilke's Granddaughter
Posts: 311
Joined: Jan. 2005
|
I'm cross-posting this for Dave's benefit: he has a bad habit of ignoring any argument that he is unable to deal with.
Been studying. Let's see if Dave came up with anything. | Quote | | Let me deal with Steve's little deal first. I won't bet you on that because you are correct that Henry was dead long before 1143. I composed my sentence ambiguously ... it should have read "Spanish and Portuguese were essentially the same language until 1143 AD when Portugal broke away from Spanish control. The break away was begun by a French nobleman by the name of Henry of Burgundy" -- little more specific. |
Sorry, Dave, you lied, pure and simple. This isn't ambiguous: | Quote | | Spanish and Portuguese were essentially the same language until 1143 AD when Portugal broke away from Spanish control under a French nobleman by the name of Henry of Burgundy. |
This is factually wrong. It is incorrect. It is a statement written by a moron so that morons will have something to read in the morning.
In fact, you just admitted that you were wrong! But your ego (typical fundie) won't let you admit that, so you attempt to claim 'ambiguity'.
Since I predicted that you would be unable to acknowledge that you made a stupid statement, I win.
Dave, we realize that you're a fool; we realize that you're ignorant of history, linguistics, philosophy, theology, science, etc. We understand that, and we pity you - really we do. It must be #### to be so illiterate that you can't even write a simple statement about history without botching it completely.
But don't you think you could show a little Christian integrity? By not lying? By admitting error? By not making yourself look any stupider than you already have?
| Quote | | Again, what we are doing here, though is answering a claim by Rilke that I am an idiot for thinking Portuguese is a mix of Spanish and French. |
And indeed, you are an idiot for claiming that 'Portuguese (which of course is Spanish and French mixed)' There are no other possibilities here: you are wrong.
| Quote | | There will be several lessons learned here. |
Are you planning to learn from any of them? I doubt it, since that would require you to actually both and understand one of our posts. Your track record isn't very good so far, I'm afraid.
| Quote | | One will be that I have met many people like Rilke on these threads who are very arrogant about their supposed intellectual superiority and at the same time are quite vehement about attacking the supposed lack of intelligence they see in YECs like me. |
Aha! Once again we see that the problem here is poor Dave's ego. Wound his vanity by pointing out that he's an idiot and he reacts like a cat that's had it's tail stepped on.
Dave, such vanity is blatantly unChristian. You should not let your ego get in the way of actual knowledge. That would be stupid.
| Quote | | This from Rilke's source of choice (Wikipedia): Although the vocabularies of Spanish and Portuguese are quite similar, phonetically Portuguese is somewhat closer to Catalan or to French. It is often claimed that the complex phonology of Portuguese compared to Spanish explains why it is generally not intelligible to Spanish speakers despite the strong lexical similarity between the two languages.Portuguese and French |
Interesting. Nothing in there about Portuguese being a 'mixture of French and Spanish.'
Dave, when you cite something in your support, you really should cite that something that actually supports you. Otherwise you simply come across as illiterate and illogical. Do try harder next time, won't you? I forgive you this time, since you're clearly young and inexperienced with discussion and argument, but if you want to debate with adults you're going to need to practice.
| Quote | | Of course if you get a good Medieval History Encyclopedia, you can get all kinds of details about this period in history when Portuguese and Spanish diverged. |
Of course. That's what history books are for, Dave. Perhaps you should try reading one? | Quote | | What you will see is massive Burgundian influence beginning with the influx of thousands of Burgundian knights in response to Alfonso VI who had a Burgundian wife, then the Burgundian Henry, grandson of Robert I of Burgundy then to Afonso Henriques, son of Henry. [Oh ... by the way ... I guess I'd better fill you in that Burgundy is in France ... small detail]. |
Ok, so far we've established that Burgundians helped dear old Alfonso VI. What, precisely, does this have to do with 'Portuguese (which of course is Spanish and French mixed)'?
| Quote | | Anyway, Afonso Henriques captures Lisbon and sets up his capital. Then if you do some further reading, you find out that standard Portuguese is based on the dialect of Lisbon, according to Rilke's other favorite source, Encyclopedia Brittanica. Can you guess that Lisbon probably had greater French influence than anywhere else in Portugal? I hope I'm not moving too fast for anyone. |
Well, for snails, perhaps. The rest of us have gotten bored waiting for you to make a point. Unfortunately, nothing you have regurgitated so far establishes 'Portuguese (which of course is Spanish and French mixed)'.
| Quote | | Hmmm ... let's think now ... a whole bunch of French knights come into western Spain to help out the king who has a French wife. Another French guy comes into Spain and marries a Spanish wife. They take over Lisbon and set up the Kingdom of Portugal. Do you see what's happening? This is not rocket science folks. This is kind of like 1+2=3. See? Spanish + French = Portuguese. |
Dave, I wouldn't suggest math as a career choice. I'll hope you're not an engineer, because only a moron would make such a claim.
You have stated that 'Burgundians were involved during a formative period of Portuguese politics.' This does NOT establish that 'Portuguese (which of course is Spanish and French mixed)'.
In order to establish that fact, you'd have to deal with linguistic history.
| Quote | | Now if you have all three of these languages in your own family (my mother speaks fluent Portuguese and Spanish and my cousin speaks fluent French), you tend to have a little better overview of these languages than the average Joe (or Rilke). |
Which does not give you any understanding of the linguistics or linguistic history of these tongues. After all, any moron can be taught language. But it takes some actual intelligence to understand it. | Quote | | I can tell you that if you have heard all three languages like I have, the mix is quite obvious. |
Ah, so you have now tried two different arguments:
1) there were Burgundians in Portugal during a formative period.
2) I, Dave, personally think these languages sound mixed. That, of course, is based on the fact that you're not the one who speaks all three - you just listen to them.
Neither of these arguments establishes that 'Portuguese (which of course is Spanish and French mixed)'?
| Quote | | And if you think and are honest (I'm finding this to be a slightly scarce combo here), |
You do have a problem with lying and blatant dishonesty of the intellectual kind, it's true. | Quote | | instead of just shoot your mouth off about how all YECs are stupid idiots, |
I haven't. I have pointed out that you, Dave, are
1) ignorant of history
2) ignorant of science
3) ignorant of theology
4) ignorant of logic
5) ignorant of debate
6) ignorant of manners
and
7) not terribly bright.
That hardly applies to all YECs. Just you. Otherwise I'd be generalizeing.
| Quote | | you can see how Wikipedia would make a statement like ... |
phonetically Portuguese is somewhat closer to Catalan or to French. (by the way, Catalan the language of Andorra -- just below France on the map)[/quote] So? In what fashion does that establish that 'Portuguese (which of course is Spanish and French mixed)'?
Answer: it doesn't, of course. Can you demonstrate that Portuguese possesses a mixture of French and Spanish grammar? A mixture of French and Spanish vocabulary? A mixture of French and Spanish pronunciation?
Apparently not.
| Quote | | Either choice you make, I'm going to take this thread back to it's intended content and expand it a bit. I will pretty much abandon the Ape Thread now as it has served its purpose. I have successfully shown that there is nothing more than flimsy evidence which could be construed as positive support for Common Descent of Apes and Humans, although there is excellent evidence for common ancestry within the Apes as well as within all the other originally created kinds. |
I see. Choosing to run away? How Christian. How brave.
| Quote | | (Rilke--you probably knew about this little detail in Wikipedia, but just withheld it, right? Very honest of you) |
Not at all. I presumed you might have the intelligence to read it yourself... and understand it. Apparently, I was wrong.
Let's sum up, shall we?
Dave claimed, 'Portuguese (which of course is Spanish and French mixed)'?
Dave has tried to support this by stating that:
1) Burgundians were involved in early Portugese history.
2) Portuguese has phonetic similarities to Catalan and French.
3) Dave thinks that Portuguese sounds like Spanish and French mixed.
What are we to make of this?
1) Having Burgundians present doesn't mean that 'Portuguese (which of course is Spanish and French mixed)' - especially since neither of these two languages existed in anything like their present form at the time. More importantly, the historical fact of the presence of Burgundians doesn't demonstrate anything about the linguistic history of the language.
2) Catalan. Well, the amusing part here is that Catalan is not French. From our ever reliable source, Wikipedia (I use it primarily because Dave seems to trust it): | Quote | | Ethnologue, its specific classification is a member of the East Iberian branch of the Ibero-Romance branch of the Gallo-Iberian branch of the Western sub complex of the Italo-Western complex of the Romance group of the Italic branch of the Indo-European language family. It shares many features with both Spanish and French, and is the language nearest to Occitan, and is often thought of as a sort of "transitory" language between the Iberian and Gallic languages when comparing the modern descendants of Latin. |
So claiming, as Dave did, that the Wikipedia quote concerning the Catalan pronunciation was meaningless.
More importantly, the statement that Portuguese is phoenetically similar to French does nothing to establish the truth of 'Portuguese (which of course is Spanish and French mixed)' unless Dave also demonstrates that Portuguese is ALSO PHOENETICALLY SIMILAR TO SPANISH.'
Which he has, of course, not done.
Finally, (3) - Dave's personal opinion that the language sounds that way. Not actual evidence, Dave - just your personal opinion.
And your personal opinion, as established by your unfortunate ignorance noted above, has been determined to be worthless.
Finally summary:
1) Dave made a blatantly incorrect statement.
2) When called on it, rather than demonstrate any intellectual integrity by admitting his mistake, he stated something quite different (ignoring his original error).
3) When called on the fact that his [i]different statement was also wrong, he denied it and offered money to salve his ego.
4) Finally brought to bay, he offered various clippings and his personal opinion to try to establish that his second statement was still correct.
5) But his clippings do not establish the truth of his original statement; and his personal opinion is valueless.
Dave, it is unChristian to lie; and disappointing to see you show so little intellectual integrity.
You are, I'm sorry to say, a moron.
But I appreciate that you're not very good at this 'debate' thing, and we'd like to help you learn more.
The first thing to learn is to admit your mistakes and errors, and not commit sins in covering them up.
Christ would like that. I understand he's your hero; you could do worse than try to emulate him.
If there is anything else we can do to help, you just let us know.
|
