FloydLee
Posts: 577
Joined: Sep. 2009
|
Okay. (Continuing with DHeddle). He wrote on Oct 5,
| Quote | | There was no claim by me that Augustine did not take any part of Genesis literally. That goes without saying. The most ardent non-literalist conservative Christian will still take much if not most of Genesis literally. They will agree, for example, that God made a covenant with Abraham. |
Here's the thing, DHeddle. You may not have MEANT to say that "Augustine did not take any part of Genesis literally", but in fact you DID say "Augustine did not take Genesis literally." THAT statement, was what was responded to.
No use accusing anybody of being "disingenuous" when you write stuff like that. If you need to be a little more specific in your claims, then just plain be more specific already, because I responded to the actual statement that you put out.
***
| Quote | | I made the specific claim that Augustine did not take the creation days literally, and he didn't. |
Actually, you said, "Instantaneous does not mean six days", and I did not deny that.
However, I did respond directly to it. I pointed out that "instantaneous" would only rationally fit in with YEC, a less than 6000 year old earth. It's absolutely logical that if the earth was created instantaneously, its age would be less than 6000 years (at the time Augie wrote that statement.)
It certainly would NOT be an old earth in Augie's view, and Augie's view (not Hugh Ross's) is currently what's under examination right now.
(Although, it should be mentioned, that Hugh Ross is wrong about the way he views "yom", Please see Robert McCabe's journal article on that issue.
http://www.dbts.edu/journals/2000/McCabe.pdf )
Your Oct 5 post also claimed that my reply was "irrelevant", but you are totally wrong on that because even Augie himself wrote that the the earth was less than 6000 years old, so it's clear that Augie's "instantaneous" position is still YEC anyway. It's what HE meant.
***
You also said,
| Quote | | (Nor, by the way, did many revered church fathers, such as Justin, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Origen, … most of whom who argued one creation day = 1000 years ( a la 2 Pet 3:8) to solve the very same "in that day you will surely die" problem.) |
Consider what James R. Mook says, however:
| Quote | "The oft-used counter examples of Clement, Origen, and Augustine, best understood through the lens of Alexandrian allegorical hermeneutics, all held that the creation had been fully completed in an instant."
---Mook, "The Church Fathers on Genesis, the Flood, and the Age of the Earth" in Coming to Grips with Genesis, eds. Terry Mortenson and Thane Ury, c2008, p.51. |
So, long story short, these church fathers aren't nearly as old-earth as you make them out to be. In fact, Mook points out, point-blank, that "The fathers were young-earth creationists" (Mortenson and Ury, page 51.)
As for the 2 Peter 3:8 "one creation day = 1000 years" argument, Dr. McCabe refutes that one totally in the previously provided journal article.
***
Long story short, I believe I have sufficiently answered your reply there about Augustine. We could go into things more, obviously (especially with Mook's survey of the church fathers), but I want to get into your additional remarks on the Fourth Incompatibility. As for St. Augie, he's a clear YEC.
FloydLee
|
